The Tölt Tales

Episode 7 - Equanimity

• The Tölt Tales • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Meet Camilla, she is a true passionate about (Icelandic) horses, she is also a true believer in a different way of training our horses: Equanimity.

We spent a hour talking about her, her horses and how she trains. 

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Music by Cob.
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Lionel:

Hello everybody, and welcome to The Tölt Tales Podcast. Hello Camilla, how are you?

Camilla:

Hello, I'm great. Good to have you here. How are you?

Lionel:

Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. So, this is a ritual. This is how we start our podcast. For the people who do not know you, what is Camilla doing in her life?

Camilla:

Yeah, well, in my background, I worked a lot within the world of hair, fashion, and education within that world. I've also been studying animal behavior on the university. Okay. Quite a bit. But still, I consider myself a complete amateur because I'm not working professional with horses. So I want to put in that disclaimer straight away. So maybe I don't explain things in the most perfect or ideal way and so on. But I hope that people will feel inspired and so on after this little podcast to think and explore in a new way with horses.

Lionel:

Yes, let's see.

Camilla:

Yeah, let's see.

Lionel:

Can you tell me maybe since when do you ride? Why Icelandic horses?

Camilla:

Yeah. So I started to ride when I was six years old on the riding school. But I don't know. I don't think the riding has been a huge part for me the whole time, actually. I've never been a brave rider that I have some friends and colleagues and all of that. They are just, it's so natural for them and they're just so naturally brave. I'm not one of those people. But yeah, I've been around horses since I was a kid, actually, like that.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

And Icelandic horses, do they have a history as well, a story? Yeah.

Camilla:

Well, when I was around 20 years old, now I'm 41, I met this Icelandic horse called Snorri and I fell in love with him. He was an Icelandic horse and we were together for 17 years. So with him, I would say I fell in love also with Icelandic breed.

Lionel:

Can you tell us a bit how many horses do you own and do you own Icelandic horses?

Camilla:

Yeah. So I had him and then another dream come true with me having a horse baby. It was Starbreeze, who's also an Icelandic horse. My friend borrowed me her mare so I could have a little horse baby with her. So I had those two. Then, unfortunately, 2021, both of them actually got sick. Actually, Starbreeze has been in and out of the hospital for multiple reasons almost his whole life. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's been pretty rough, I can say. But this year, both of them actually had lots of health issues and my older horse, he didn't make it. So then Starbreeze was alone because we lived here on the farm. So my other friend was kind enough to lend me out her Shetland pony. And she bought him because she has a kid. But she said, well, Camilla, I think you need to come to a little retreat and have fun at your place because he don't like kids. He's trying to kick her and bite her and tell her in all kinds of way he don't like kids, so he can come to you. Meanwhile, I was looking for another horse. So my horse would have company. So I found Bentley, who is the Welsh part bread. But I actually was mostly looking for an Icelandic horse, but kind of accidentally Bentley came into my life and he's the Welsh part bread. And then when a few months after that, my friend said, well, Camilla, I actually feel guilty taking Mack the Shetland pony back because they have so much fun together, those three. So you can buy him if you like.

Lionel:

Right.

Camilla:

So now I have this mixed herd and I thought I would be this kind of Icelandic.

Lionel:

Full Icelandic owner.

Camilla:

But yeah, exactly. But now I have one Icelandic and one Shetland pony in this Welsh part bread. Yeah.

Lionel:

I was about to ask when is the last time you bought a horse, but you just answered that question.

Camilla:

That was Mack. My Shetland pony then accidentally happened in that way.

Lionel:

And you have him since?

Camilla:

2022.

Lionel:

All right. Okay. Three years almost.

Camilla:

Yeah. So, and he moved here the year before. Yeah. So that's a while ago.

Lionel:

Can you describe a bit where we are? We are in your farm, right?

Camilla:

Yes, we are in Urkeljunga right now. So this is where I lived since six years, and I come from Skåne originally.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

And I would consider my other home, South Africa, where I used to live in the winter time, I work there on photo shoots. All right. Yeah.

Lionel:

So if we are here today, it's to talk about, I hope I pronounced it well, equanimity.

Camilla:

Oh, you said it perfect.

Lionel:

Thank you. I rehearsed in the car when we...

Camilla:

Oh, you did.

Lionel:

Yes. 10,000 times. Yeah. Can you please describe a bit what it is?

Camilla:

Yeah, sure.

Lionel:

It's a very broad question, right?

Camilla:

It's a very broad question. Yeah, exactly. Know what it is. So it's founded by a man called Stena Sigurbjörnsson. So it's a whole combination of a lot of just fantastic tools, if you ask me, which is all about modern movement science, motivational science, it's play, it's autonomy, it's positive reinforcement, movement exploration. And also actually, how can we regulate the horse philosophy, relax and calm? So there's a lot of tools in a wonderful just combination of stuff. Normally, I actually say, because sometimes, you get this question, and you feel you only have basically two questions to answer this. And then I normally say, it's like a combination of yoga and crossfit.

Lionel:

OK.

Camilla:

But for horses. All right. So, yeah, it's a lovely combination of...

Lionel:

For the human as well, though, because you do a lot of groundwork, right? So it's also fitting for the human.

Camilla:

You know what? There are so many good side effects for the human, both physically and all other. So you will start to run and you haven't even noticed that you're out of breath and yeah. So that is also very great, I think.

Lionel:

So you said it yourself, right? You're not a professional. You kind of embraced that way of riding or training. I don't know what is the right word to use.

Camilla:

Yeah. So if we could go back to that, I think also why I really point out this with that, I am not a professional is because I feel I have such a big respect for people that are professionals or are educators in a certain topics. I've been educating within my topic with hair and the fashion world for 20 plus years. And you have just built up this huge library of experiences, so you can be waken up in your sleep and you just know certain things. And I actually had an example of that today. I was thinking about this today because I have a photoshoot planned tomorrow.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

Yeah. And I was packing, you know, clothes and shoes, and apparently looks for four models. And I know the four people, the four models, and I just know their shoe size, and I have no clue why.

Lionel:

It's natural, right?

Camilla:

It just comes naturally to you.

Lionel:

It's part of your...

Camilla:

And for me, you know, I have all of this huge library of experiences within that world. But with horse world, sure, with horses, I have a little bit of a library, with, you know, the education, with also practical examples. But if I compare myself to, for example, Steinar, his library is huge of experiences. So probably if he had a similar situation, we show him a picture of a horse, he would say, oh, this is a natural Töltter, or, oh, this horse would be, you know, need a little bit of support to learn, you know, certain skills and so on. He would just know, but just have a glimpse. In the same way, I apparently know the shoe size, or even knowing, oh, this girl probably is a great cat walker, you know, because just have a glimpse, you know, naturally, oh, this girl need a little bit of support along the way to an hours to train, you know.

Lionel:

I just realized you said cat walker.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Is it not cat walk part of the some naming that you use?

Camilla:

I love this. It's kind of a cat walk because it's panther walk, which is like cat. Yes, close enough. Yeah, I love it. It's not a cat walk, but for the horses. Yeah, it is.

Lionel:

So you have an exercise that does that, right?

Camilla:

Yeah, it's called panther walk. And it's very similar to Spanish walk that you probably have seen. But it's both trained in a different way. And also what is the biggest, I would say difference is that there are certain tasks or movement that within other type of training, the goal is to actual movement and perfectionize it. And we don't do that at all. We want to for the horse to experience the panther walk, to have a bigger range of motions, get better balance and proper reception, all of this. But the goal is to have a more adaptable horse who have explored a lot of movement. That is the goal, not the actual movement. And also we want them to really stretch out, do different variation of it. There's not one perfect movement.

Lionel:

Would you say what you just described would be the goal of equanimity, like that the horse experience is movement?

Camilla:

Yeah, I would say to have a really adaptable and strong athlete who is confident and proud and loves to move.

Lionel:

And this is what you want from your horses?

Camilla:

Yeah, you would love that. Yes. I mean, who wouldn't like to have a strong, confident, agile athlete with you?

Lionel:

Indeed.

Camilla:

Yeah, that's what we would love to have.

Lionel:

A small question, the word equanimity, does it have a meaning? Or where does it come from exactly?

Camilla:

It is actually from the Buddhism, I think. Now, we don't teach any Buddhism, just so we are very clear with that. But it is meaning like inner peace or mental stability and so on within that. And I know for Sten on his way of teaching, it is like you can face basically any challenge, and that is for the humans or the horse, and just feel, I got this, no problem. And have that mental stability that you can handle rough times or a challenge, and it's not a problem.

Lionel:

You mentioned that equanimity is part of like giving the horse all the, helping him, being confident.

Camilla:

Yes, that's part of it. And there are so many tools we work with to get the horse there, to get it stronger and more confident. One of the tools is to do crunches. I don't know if you heard about crunches.

Lionel:

Yes, I did. Yes, I even seen it multiple times.

Camilla:

You have even seen it? Oh, great. Yes. So, the crunch have actually a few different purposes. Both are physical purpose when it comes to, we really want the horse to teach it, to use its core and get a good posture, lifting the withers and the back up, so you have this healthy posture. But also, we think that it has a mental positive effect on it too. There is a lady called Amy Cuddy who have done studies within something called power poses. That there is power poses which is within both the human world and also the animal world. So, if we enter a power pose which is in the human world, for example, so standing like Wonder Woman, like this, then your confidence will go up and you will feel good, you will feel strong.

Lionel:

Yes, and crunches look like this, right? It's very proud horse feeling.

Camilla:

What we talk about is nature's pharmacy. There are certain chemicals within your body that supports you to feel good and feel strong.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

And this, they say, can support the body and the crunches then. And you can see a stallion maybe show this proud posture on his own in the field and so on. So we want to do this with our horses for all of those reasons.

Lionel:

I'm curious to know, just to piggyback on what you just said, when you see a proud stallion doing the power pose or all those beautiful trot, is it something that you also do?

Camilla:

Yes, exactly. So what we also want to do, we of course want to encourage this good posture for so many ways. But for me, I want to take it further to movement. How can we use this proud, healthy posture in movement, in walk, in trot, in canter? So then you will experience it. And what do we call fancy trot and so on. And that's one of the movement solutions they might suggest when they get this space to explore movements.

Lionel:

You say suggest?

Camilla:

Yeah, suggest, yes. So we work a lot with autonomy.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

And this supports that the more space you give your child, your colleague, your horse or whatever, to say no, or just explore things their own way, the more naturally motivated they will be to do a certain task.

Lionel:

Okay. So you're trying to train the inner motivation?

Camilla:

Yes. The intrinsic motivation is a part of that too. Especially since the horse is a flight animal.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

They actually love that they have the space to both move and also get, you know, that they can say their opinion. It gives them some kind of safety in some way I have discovered.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

How a horse looks when he's like, no, I don't want, he would just...

Camilla:

This can easily happen and I can tell you that. And we are so used to when we have a horse, that we constantly on them, you know. We need to be effective with the time. We all know this. We have this half an hour. And here we're going to do those five tasks that we have planned. Right. And I would say, especially in the beginning, when it comes to giving the horse more autonomy, yes, they all react very differently. And depending on the personality and its experience, it might say no a lot in the beginning, and it wants to explore this area. Can I actually do this? Can I?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

You know, and I would say in general, the more space we give the horse to say no, the bigger chances it is that it will say yes. But sometimes this might take one session, sometimes maybe half a year for it.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

I mean, that is very individual, I would say. But the question is, how do we handle that? And there I've seen so many interesting things at those courses, because the natural thing for us as humans, we want to be effective, and we want things to happen all the time. So we will go and basically stare at the horse. Hello, what are you doing? Should we do this? Should we do that? Come on, let's do A. Okay, B, C, come on, come on, come on. Right? And look at it all the time. But you know, the horses, they seem to love the feel of no expectations. So I've seen so many times that Stena on the courses here give what the students and audience probably think a ridiculous task, such as taking up the poopy scoop and go and pick up invisible poop that is not even there. And probably people wonder what's going on? Why do they need to do this?

Lionel:

I bet a lot of people are wondering.

Camilla:

Yeah, exactly. But you know what happens with so many of the horses then?

Lionel:

Tell me, how can you say that?

Camilla:

You must try this yourself.

Lionel:

Yeah, well, now I'm thinking I will try it tomorrow.

Camilla:

Then from the horses has maybe taken a break on its own and explore itself and so on, because the human was quite intense, wanting stuff the whole time. Now the human is going and doing complete the other stuff and taking the attention off. Now the horse comes up to you and like, hello, what are you doing?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

Why are you doing this? Can I actually join you? Because this seems quite interesting. Suddenly. Isn't that interesting? Just this with having not the exact expectations. I think that is the feel that the horses loves for some reason. And it's very, very interesting to see, I feel. One of the things we talk about quite a lot is flow. Within the human world, it's quite discovered and proven in studies that it is there. And when you are in a flow, you lose time and space, and also you perform at your peak performance. That's why you want to reach that. And it's not proven within the animal world that it is there. But we're trying to use the tools, because it's also not said that it's not there in the animal world. So what you want then is to have the skill and challenge in the right balance. And if you think about the TV game, for example, normally the TV game starts at a quite easy level.

Lionel:

Yes. Yeah.

Camilla:

But then when you have started to play it, and you have played it for a while, if it would only be at the same level the whole time, you would be bored, probably. You would lose motivation.

Lionel:

There is progression, there is difficulty. Yes, absolutely. This is what we give to the players.

Camilla:

Exactly. But also if you would start at the top level, that would be too hard for you. The skill and challenge would not balance up like that, too. And also you want to be met with a little bit of, what can I say, surprising or curiosity. And we want to use that also with a horse. Like, how can we do this? Okay, so this is a certain task we want to do with a horse, but how can we do this experience a little bit more interesting? Can we go out to nature? Can we explore a new area that the horse feel is fun? Can we go up on this hill? Can we go down? And then, you're trying to use those tools to make the horse stay motivated and be really creative. For that day, what can we do today to make the setup new and fresh and fun for me and for the horse? And most probably it will also say more yes, then.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

If you have set up this environment where it's interesting and fun.

Lionel:

We discussed about the crunches. We discussed about the panther walk a bit.

Camilla:

Yeah, catwalk panther walk.

Lionel:

Catwalk panther walk. Do you have any type of exercise that you use to make sure that the horse is happy and give his voice?

Camilla:

Yeah. So the key, I would say, is variation. It's a lot of variation because also within the modern movement science world, there is nothing such as a perfect movement, which we often talk about in a biomechanical way and so on. And you know what, maybe there isn't such perfect movement, and it's just to do slight variation to stay with the longevity and prevent injuries and all of that. It's normally good to do a lot of variation. So how can you do certain movement in different ways, on different places, and so on, to make it a healthy, good movement? So variation is key, I would say, for what we are doing. Then we do a lot of work on the mat, for example, for the horse to use the stabilizing muscles and so on. That's really good. But you can also actually use moss out in the forest. But I know everybody is not blessed to have that. So sometimes we have to take nature to the farm with the mat. You don't have this kind of nature. So then the mat, for example, is great. We also use that.

Lionel:

Sorry, what does it look like? What is the mat? You put a mat on the ground, I guess?

Camilla:

Yes. Maybe this is not clear for just people. Thank you for stopping me there. It's a gymnastic mat. And many start with a mat they have on IKEA. Those that you do just little gymnastic things on, so you use this but for the horses to stand on.

Lionel:

Oh, right.

Camilla:

What is even better is actually a little bit of a thicker mat. Because then you get more feedback from it. You have to rebalance yourself a little bit more and so on.

Lionel:

The bit that we have with the posture block, for instance?

Camilla:

Yeah, probably.

Lionel:

You know what it is, the posture block that you put your horse on, and they will tend to try to balance.

Camilla:

It is exactly those, but bigger like that. It does the same thing. It does exactly the same thing, which is using those small little muscles and training a little bit of the balance and small muscles.

Lionel:

Something that you just said just speak to me a bit more than usual. You talk about the goal is to have healthy horses.

Camilla:

Yeah, healthy, adaptable, strong, confident athletes, I would say.

Lionel:

When we start riding, we learn how, or we've been told how the horse learn by release pressure, etc. Do you use that as well, or you consider that is not what you want to do?

Camilla:

You know, this is such an interesting question because Stenav said that to me before, because I've gone through so much with that, starting to riding again and all of that. And he used to say, you know what, you need to design your own journey that suits you and your horse. So I would say, there's not an exact rule for this. So obviously, if you want to keep your riding, have you done it always, with pressure release, negative reinforcement, you can keep that in one context and then play with your horse, give it autonomy and positive reinforcement in another context and keep them quite separate. Or you can start to introduce the autonomy and positive reinforcement within also the riding and all of that. So, you absolutely can. And if I should take a little bit about my back, because as I said, I used to ride...

Lionel:

You probably used to ride when you were younger, and you have the classic methodology. I don't know if I should say that.

Camilla:

And I was never great at it. Absolutely not. For many reasons, I think. And I'm starting up riding again, in combination of I try to rewire my brain, because I know that I didn't want to do the riding in the same way as I used to for different ways. I wanted to introduce more positive reinforcement. I want to use autonomy and so on. So I was just, you know, sometimes I feel like I have no clue what's going on. And I asked Saina, you know, like when I start to ride, like I have actually no clue what I'm doing. I don't know my cues. I don't know anything actually what I'm doing. Can you please tell me, give me the answer? And he was just saying, Camilla, there is no cues. There is no answers. You design your journey. You and your horse must find what's good for you.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

So, and I think that says a lot, you know. You have to find your ways and what suits you, you know. And as I said, you could mix it, or you put it in different contexts. But what I would say, even if you only choose to do equanimity play and so on with your horse in one context, but then you may be still just riding the way you used to sing before, I think you would still have a lot out of it from your horse.

Lionel:

Yes, it doesn't go against, it just adds the benefit.

Camilla:

I would say it's the same thing. If you have done a lot of play and made your horse really agile, strong, and a lot of range of motion, lots of self-determination and all of that, when you ride your horse, it will carry itself in a complete other way on its own. It will own its own posture in another way. So you can use that. And we want to protect the spine, of course, so you have a good posture for the horse.

Lionel:

For sure.

Camilla:

And I mean, I have experienced moment now with Starbass, even if I am an amateur rider, and I don't even consider him barely even broken in properly. Still, those moments we have had with those glimpses of when he's really poofing up his posture and really stretching out and going for it, that is moments I've never experienced ever with any other horse. But when you start to work with positive reinforcement, it's to turn the world upside down. Because you're actually ignoring what is so-called not correct.

Lionel:

Yeah, right.

Camilla:

And instead, you are highlighting what's in the right direction or good. So it's beautiful in that way. Because you start to think a lot more positive in that way, because you're constantly looking for something that's good, and not looking for, oh, is this or that coming?

Lionel:

All right. And when you see something is good, then you will try to reinforce it. This is what you, this is what is all about, I guess.

Camilla:

So we use a clicker.

Lionel:

Right.

Camilla:

You can also just use a sound and so on. But we use the clicker for it's very clear communication and give very precise timing. First comes a click, that means a reward, a food treatment.

Lionel:

Yeah, OK. Do you use a lot of treat in that sense?

Camilla:

Yes. But then that is a whole area on its own, because I know many that hasn't, you know, they're used to the negative reinforcement and they're very confident in that world. And then they enter this and they're like, oh, but my horse would get too much with the treats and so on.

Lionel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Camilla:

But that is a skill on its own, of course, too, just like the negative reinforcement become good in that. So I would really advise to use a trainer on online course and so on, because there's different levels of treats, for example.

Lionel:

Yes, and the timing as well. You mentioned also the timing must be right.

Camilla:

But also like carrots has a very high value, for example, but just grass pellets is lower. So you must also balance those kind of things and the timing and train how the horse reacts to also treat. So so they know they should stay calm and all of those things, too.

Lionel:

So you you you use different treat for different when you want different effect.

Camilla:

Absolutely. Yeah, we try to balance that too. So we have the right value of reward.

Lionel:

There is a pyramid of reward. Yeah, this is really funny. OK.

Camilla:

And I mean, you can to a certain level, but it is a little bit more restricted. Also use, for example, scratching and all of that. But you're a little bit limited. So it's hard to really stay motivated with only using scratching. But sure, when the horse loses fur and all of that, they are more keen to get scratch. And maybe an easier task, such as lifting a foot or doing small tasks like that. Yes. But maybe not if you want a full on canter, you know, something. You maybe want to have a little bit more motivation to that.

Lionel:

I bet. And now today I learned that carrot is the highest level.

Camilla:

For many horses or apples, but not for all of them, I guess. It's like humans. We all have different preferences. But then we also want to use intrinsic motivation, of course.

Lionel:

Right.

Camilla:

Yes. So we want to use both of them. And what is that then? It is, again, what is interesting for a horse. Curiosity, for example. And again, going to an environment that I find interesting, maybe to go up this hill, it feels more natural for them to be able to, oh, I want to go up here and see what's there, for example.

Lionel:

Yes. And how would you nurture this intrinsic, or this own curiosity, I guess? They are all curious, right?

Camilla:

You know what? It's interesting because I see so many horses here at the courses and that. And I would say some horses have almost closed down the curiosity. Yeah, because, you know, they are so used to listening to a command of a human and be very like, they might not explore their curiosity when we are training with them and so on. So sometimes you have to train back almost like, oh, it's okay, you can be curious at this, you can stop a sniff here, you can look there and so on. So I would say from the beginning, horses are naturally curious, but some of them have closed it off a little bit to just listen for the cues for the humans, but then you want to get that back. Yes, right.

Lionel:

So we talked about example, you gave example of exercise that you do. They are mainly groundwork.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Is there a reason why we took those examples as groundwork but you can do the same thing on the horse?

Camilla:

I would say so because again, even if we do a lot of groundwork, that benefits a lot when it comes to the riding.

Lionel:

For sure.

Camilla:

I mean, a great example, I would say is Sara Seger Bjergson.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

As you might know her, she won the World Championship.

Lionel:

She's a bit known, yes.

Camilla:

Yes. And they won the F1, I think it's called, right? The 5G 31. And Floki, who is the family bread and own horse for Stena and Sara. So he has been training a lot of this type of stuff with being on the mat, doing crunches and also doing a lot of what we call mindful walking and body awareness. We do a lot of those kinds of things too, with bodywork and sensory input and all of that. So then when he enters the World Championship, what was the most impressive thing for me with that performance and I think for a lot of people watching it, is the transitions. The transition up to pace and the transition down to pace. You can see that Floki is a complete uphill the whole time. He do the smoothest transition from walk to pace, gradually and canter and all of that. And then down from pace, down to walk again. And it's such a smooth and beautiful transitions. It just flows. And the reason for why, if in my opinion, why he could do this, he was so strong and had the core stability, had a great posture and balance. So he actually was able to do this and a lot actually on his own. Sara was of course a great supporter and rider. That's not what I'm saying. But she could...

Lionel:

He's definitely part of the couple, I guess. He's bringing his own...

Camilla:

He was able to use his posture and was so confident in his body and had a great balance. So he could, he was able to perform it as a super athlete.

Lionel:

That he is.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Winning such a competition.

Camilla:

So then you have a great... You know, you can really utilize it in the riding too, because the horse have this adaptable, balanced body.

Lionel:

You will tend to start from the ground.

Camilla:

Yes, we do a lot of groundwork.

Lionel:

And this is how you start?

Camilla:

I would say so.

Lionel:

You don't have a lunge, for instance? We can.

Camilla:

I do it a lot now, but in the beginning, I was doing as much as possible at complete liberty. No rain, so no anything. And now I've kind of... We are so confident, I would say, in certain things that I can, again, put on a little rain to do more, how can I say, like lounging-ish, but it's in a very different way, I guess. But there is a rain, you know. But in the beginning, it's great to work with liberty, I would say, and also work with protected space. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Lionel:

No, but I would like to hear about it.

Camilla:

Great. So within natural horsemanship, especially, there is something called a round pen, right?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

But now we put ourselves in the round pen.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

Yeah. So we closed in the humans.

Lionel:

Yes. I remember seeing the videos.

Camilla:

Yes, exactly. And then the horse can do its own thing on the other side.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

Which is great, because sometimes the horse might feel that it needs to kick out its backless or back or do anything like that. And then the horse is safe to explore its own body and movement, and we are safe on the other side. And we can also move around in a freer way. So we, and the protected space can be in a circle. It can be a square. It can be a straight line. We can do it in many ways, but it's both for safety. It's great.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

But also, I would say even if you are working with a long line or if you're riding or something like that, I use this protected space so much because it gives you directions. You know yourself, even if you have a fence in a paddock, it's easier to just move along a straight line there.

Lionel:

Yeah, to lean.

Camilla:

Yeah, exactly.

Lionel:

Montally lean on it.

Camilla:

Exactly. Or a circle so it doesn't become too small or use the corners. Even when you're out in the forest, you can get directions from the trees. For sure. It just gives yourself and the horse easier directions, I would say. So that is why it's so good to use the protected space too. And I what I call refurnish it like all the time to give us new challenges. Today it's a square, today it's a triangle, today it's round. And then I use it in different ways for both of us.

Lionel:

So let me picture it. You take your paddock, you create yourself, you're the human round table.

Camilla:

Yeah, exactly.

Lionel:

But the horse is not constrained. What if the horse said, I will just go on the other corner where you're not? What is the idea behind it?

Camilla:

Yeah. And as I said, in many cases, this can be frustrating for a human because they're like, hello, now we are going to do this.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

But that is maybe when you need to, as we talked about before, take your attention completely away and do something else. And then the horse might say, hey, what are you doing? That sounds quite interesting, actually. Or you need to wait for it and be patient. And this has not been my stronger skill, I can tell you that. Because this is tricky to take a breath, wait for it, and be okay with that.

Lionel:

So you mean like being at the rhythm of the horse, in a sense.

Camilla:

But then you must see there, okay, maybe he just is not into this exercise too. Maybe you need to do something else. And then we have a lot of fun tools we are working with, you know, we have Pilates balls, maybe he wants to chase that. We have this, like a giant cat toy. Have you seen that?

Lionel:

No, I don't think so.

Camilla:

But you know how a giant cat toy might look.

Lionel:

Yeah, okay.

Camilla:

We have like a big stick, and then there's a bag at the end of it. So then you can put that out and teach the horse to chase it. Like a cat.

Lionel:

Okay, so you come back to Varyetie, I guess.

Camilla:

Yeah, exactly. So this day, you maybe need to motivate your horse in a new way, or maybe you need to shape it in another way. This day, maybe you need to run around like a clown yourself, and like, or next day, you maybe just need to stay at peace and wait for him. You have to be, I would say, very creative yourself.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

How can you motivate? How can you make this happen without being too pushy?

Lionel:

Yes. Would that look like you're playing with your horse?

Camilla:

Absolutely. We use a lot of play with them. And you will look like a child yourself. I've seen this so many times. People that just see us from the outside must be so funny.

Lionel:

It makes for good videos, I guess.

Camilla:

Yeah, exactly. We're just running around with those pool noodles and laughing. And it's just, but it's great exercise in so many ways, even if it might look fun like that. But it is fun. You actually become like a child yourself again to explore this just true joy and fun that you used to have with your friends when you were a kid, you know, running around and playing hide and seek or whatever. That's a little bit how it feels. And that's one of the reasons why I really love this way of training. It's just so much fun.

Lionel:

Do you try to mimic how horses play with other horses? You know, like picking on their legs? Oh, no, it's not at all that.

Camilla:

No, it's not like that. But what is really interesting, what you're mentioning is within the dog world, there is a technique called do as I do, which is that we mimic each other's body language. So what you will do a lot within Equanimity too, is that you start to become very aware of your own body too. Because that we have seen though, that we will start to mimic each other in a good posture. And many of us, when we're working with a horse, especially from the ground, again, we want to really look at them. We don't want to miss any second of it. We're staring at it. We're holding the rope and all of that. And we can become quite front-heavy, you know what I mean, like that. So here instead, Stena is coaching us a lot with having a proud posture ourselves, and really be grounded like that, but move floating and easy. And most likely the horse will also be inspired by that. So we inspire each other to move in this more gracious way with a good posture.

Lionel:

Yes, it resonates a bit with the videos I see from Stena. The way he walks is not the way I will walk or anyone will walk.

Camilla:

Exactly. He has the best body awareness. He works on it all the time. It's quite funny when he has a break from the lessons here at the clinic, he is so agile. He's standing on his head. He's doing yoga poses and all of that in the lunch break. And he is so aware of the body and how it mirrors to the horse.

Lionel:

Right.

Camilla:

And it's very interesting. If we want the horse to go around a circle and maybe twist a little bit and all of that, if you start to do it a little bit yourself, how it will affect the horse too. So even if it's not a known method within the horse world, it is within the dog world, do as I do. So I think it's a great way to try to mimic each other like that.

Lionel:

Yeah, I remember seeing someone who wants to start a panther walk with your horse, and then you will tend to walk like this.

Camilla:

Yes, exactly. So they are clever. They will start to see it. And that is another interesting part too, because horses learn from each other too.

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

So sometimes it's so fun to see. You might have had, like me, I had two other horses who know, you know, panther walk or whatever it is. It's almost like they're sitting there and watching each other. So now, with this new horse who only see his, seen his brothers doing panther walk, for example, he will learn like in a second, it feels like. It's like they even see each other. Yeah, it's really hard to explain, but they influence each other too, like that.

Lionel:

I can relate to that when we have one of our friends that is doing equanimity sometime at the stable. She has her new horse.

Camilla:

I know, yeah.

Lionel:

And it's really hilarious to have like, you can definitely see like, oh, what are you doing?

Camilla:

She's already picking it up.

Lionel:

Yes, but also curiosity, you know what you mentioned before, like, what are you doing? And sometimes she will not, the mare will not be interested at all.

Camilla:

No.

Lionel:

But sometimes she's like, oh, I want to know what is all about.

Camilla:

Exactly, exactly. Let's do this.

Lionel:

Would you say that this is one of the first brick that you try to not teach, but to... How can I say that?

Camilla:

But I think I know what you're out for, and that is one of the first things we want to have there, the joy of movement and have the motivation to want to do stuff, have self-determination. Even if it is, for example, with this bag, like I said, a giant cat, to just... Horses are natural flight animals, as we talk, you know, but we want them to be determined, like, I can step on this bag, you know, I can chase this, come on, you know, and have this determination of, I can do it, I got it.

Lionel:

Yeah, this is not a natural thing, per se, then.

Camilla:

I guess not, no.

Lionel:

Because they will tend to, I'm not interested, I go on the other way, but you want to reinforce, no, but you can chase that.

Camilla:

Exactly. And also, basically, all animals are natural energy savers. So you need to give them a purpose and motivation to do things. And of course, you can do that with negative reinforcement or positive reinforcement, or other tools you can work with. But we need to work with the motivations that they actually want to do stuff, I would say, and feel it's fun. Yeah.

Lionel:

So just out of curiosity, I'm a rider, I'm listening to this podcast, and I'm like, I want to try it. What should I start with? How do I start?

Camilla:

Yeah, well, if you want to start with positive reinforcement at all, for example, I started to explore it on my own.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

But I would say, looking back, it would be better if I use some kind of trainer, someone who could coach me a little bit along the way in that. And I mean, nowadays, there are so many good online classes and so on that is so accessible to all of us wherever we live.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Camilla:

So I would do that. And with this, with equanimity, it's the same. Of course, we have courses here. There's online courses and so on. And it's so much fun. So I would do that. Then maybe you have a friend around who do those kind of things. Maybe you can start to learn from each other and so on. That could also be a way.

Lionel:

And it's a good segue to you proposing like clean, not clinic, but like training week, right? We were talking before the recording. How does it look like?

Camilla:

Yeah. So this training in general is very different, I would say, also in the way of learning, because we are so used to getting, how can I say, the answers are served in our hands?

Lionel:

Right, the tools or toolbox.

Camilla:

Yeah, very like, this is step one, two, three. It's step by step. And here is the answer, here is how you should do it. But I know it's Dana's way in equanimity. It's all about getting the robust knowledge with explore the answer, which is the right one for you. And that makes the knowledge heavier in some kind of way for both the horse and yourself, if you've got like a challenge that learns you the answer of how to do certain things. So it's very different learnings in that way too, and since it's not a step by step, and that's why I encourage people that even comes to a course here to preferably come for a couple of days, so you can put it more in a context altogether, since it's not day one, we start with step one, two, three, four. It's not like that.

Lionel:

No, it doesn't sound like it.

Camilla:

No, it's more like putting a lot of different ingredients in one pot and working with those, or having a lot of volume bottoms that you're twisting a little bit the whole time and learning. So it's not that you need to start with a certain thing. If anything, I would say, as we said before, how can I get my horse really motivated and feel it's fun, enjoy them, and actually enjoy to move?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

Absolutely. But otherwise, there is not a certain stairways that you often have in many skills you're learning in that, and here is the exact correct way of doing it.

Lionel:

This is extremely interesting. I didn't even ask, like, how did you come to it? How did you start it?

Camilla:

Yeah. So...

Lionel:

Because it's easier to find a more traditional type of training.

Camilla:

Yeah. So the first time I came across it was actually seeing movies of Stena, what was looking like he was dancing around with horses, in a way I've never seen before. It was just mind-blowing, you know. So I saw this and started to look it up. I went to an online program. He was having while he was living in the US. And then he came to Sweden, I think it is six years ago, and had a clinic in Margarethe Hof for the first time. And here I was mind-blown, because I could really see how the horses was having so much fun. And I also remember, you know, I had so many questions. This was six years ago. And I was sitting there and really thinking, what, why did the horse start to panther walk? What did they cue that? What did they say? How did they do that? And that was, you know, I really thought you had to cue it in that way and control it and all of that. Now I've learned, there's other ways of working with a horse, playing with your horse. And I remember I asked Dana this, can you have a cue for the panther walk and for this, for the crunch? And he's also then, I remember was, you can if you like to, if that suits you, but you also don't need to. And I was like, what? No trainer has said this to me ever. Well, isn't there a clear answer of this question? Can I do it in my way? You know, like, it was mind blowing, this type of way of learning too, for you and your horse. So I just loved it from the beginning. And after that, I started to host the clinics here, which I've done now for five years.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

So you said, like, you watch videos, you watch... I have to say, I have to talk about... You did a proper video yourself. It's beautiful. It's cinematography. And it just gives so much to think about. Thank you.

Camilla:

I'm so glad to hear this. Thank you.

Lionel:

Yeah. I will welcome everybody. We're going to put the link in the description of the podcast. But can you describe a bit, like, from... How did you went from, let's work with equanimity, let's have that, and one day you do an ode a bit. You know, it's like a love letter to that methodology.

Camilla:

Yeah. No. So actually, what happened was that I, quite many years ago, I saw a video when Mother Nature was speaking to humans. All right. Yeah. And it really inspired me.

Lionel:

Okay.

Camilla:

In so many levels, how the video was done and what human nature had to say to humans.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

And I started to think, if the horses could send a message to humans, what would it say?

Lionel:

All right.

Camilla:

What would I think it would say? And also I discussed this with Stena, who was also really into this idea, like, what message do we think that the horses would like to send to humans?

Lionel:

Right. Now I can start to watch the video in another angle.

Camilla:

Exactly. So there is a voiceover in the video that hopefully all of you will see, where the horse is speaking to the humans, right?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

So I wanted to... Actually, what you described here yourself, I was hoping that humans that see it get inspired and also think, you know, who is the horse? Who is the horse for me? Who is for itself?

Lionel:

Yeah.

Camilla:

Because it's a powerful, magical creature, the horse. Yes. Without us.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

Because it was so important to get the right words to make you feel and think, rather than, you know, put the words to you, you know? And also the visual to that, of course, which was, as I said, I worked within, you know, productions and film and photos for my whole grown up life. So I was lucky enough to get one of my best friends and the most amazing photographer and filmmaker there. And we only had two and a half days to shoot that. But I know he would find those moments that is really emotional with the horse, that you really close and you feel the horse.

Lionel:

I mean, you show some behind the scenes that are hilarious, right? Yes. Not in the video, but I don't know how we can share that ever in your Instagram account or whatever, but you can see snippets of behind the scene with your friend and being in the middle of the horses.

Camilla:

Yes, we would drive. I mean, Senna found the most amazing locations out in Iceland, which was completely remote and no people and all of that. And being so different from myself, I am like a chicken when it comes to driving with a trailer and that myself. Here, like a stallion, a mare and four horses in there, so completely confident with a trailer, not a problem. Driving over rivers with these trailers and up to the mountains, and then the horses come out and like, yeah, not a problem. And all of this, you know, I was just impressed behind the scenes with all of this and come to those places, you know, this black beach, no people at all and these waterfalls. And obviously, with spending this time with Stena, I've heard certain stories with certain horses.

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

And one of them was one of the stallions who was in this video, and it was absolutely beautiful to see him.

Lionel:

Is it the one that you see when he goes up the hill?

Camilla:

Probably, a black stallion, yeah. So I know Stena's dad is a very well-known Icelandic. He's the national team, I think, or coach for Icelandic. So I know this is his most precious, precious horse. And it was seriously injured in so many ways. And they didn't know what to do with him. He had all the x-rays and all of that, you can never imagine. They didn't find what was ever the problem, actually. So Stena's dad came to Stena and said, hey, please, can you just do whatever you need to do to see if he can get his way back? So he did a lot of crunches and a lot of work with him in his way, and he came back better than ever. And this is the stallion who is in that video too, and to see him and Stena just around there in this valley going up and down, and yes, his beautiful posture, and he's composed and calm, but powerful. And it was beautiful to see how they can be together like that after all of this.

Lionel:

Is it what you wanted to achieve with this video, or you went above what you wanted to do?

Camilla:

I was very happy with the outcome. Then, of course, I would love even more people to see it and feel it themselves, you know. And I hope that both the images and the visuals speak to them as well as the words, because one of the things that we are talking about in the voice-over is that the horse have been around over 50 million years, right? Yeah, it didn't look exactly like a horse then, of course not. And the humans hasn't been, I think it's like 300,000 years. I hope I say right now, the human. And I guess we didn't really look like humans then too. But, you know, we need the horse in so many ways. They have served us in so many ways. Through war, through farming, and nowadays through sport and all of that, you know. And still, sometimes we humans, we want to think the horses relies on us in their movement and in their way of being. They need us so much. But I think we need the horse, you know. And how can we really thank the horse for that? How can we make it be as powerful and as magical as it is?

Lionel:

Right.

Camilla:

Yeah.

Lionel:

And this is what you tried to achieve with the movie?

Camilla:

For everybody, they need to feel it to see how does it speak to you, I would say, this movie.

Lionel:

I know that when we just put it in our TV, you know, with the sound.

Camilla:

You have to have the sound high.

Lionel:

No, but I think you need to. Like a great image, great picture, great sound is to live somewhere where you can just experience it. And I think it's just beautiful.

Camilla:

And Iceland is beautiful, of course. And we had this great opportunity, of course, because Senna and his whole family have those. I don't even know how many horses there are, probably hundreds. And you go out to those places where there's this beautiful stallion with like 20 mares and foals and all of that. And they are roaming around in those huge spaces and to capture those moments, that we don't really have that here in Sweden in that way. It's very raw and authentic and beautiful.

Lionel:

But I'm curious to know, why did you do that? What, what, what drove you?

Camilla:

I think I've always had a huge passion for animals in general. And the horse, I mean, it's very discussed right now. What is happening with the horse? How does it feel? How does it feel with the way we're working with it, competing with it and all of that? And there's different ways to do things. But I think it all starts with how we feel around the horse. And can this inspire you in some way with some, some images, and also some wording like that?

Lionel:

Yes.

Camilla:

The horse is a very, very intelligent individual and creature species. And also naturally, I would say, a movement genius, a movement master. And then we think that we can, we know more about their movement sometimes than they know themselves. Meanwhile, they come out as a foal and do canto pirates on their own and all of that. How can we get that back, you know, to the horse to feel that and be such a movement master, you know?

Lionel:

Yeah. I think these beautiful words to finish. Thank you so much for this episode, Camilla.

Camilla:

I hope you enjoyed it. I enjoyed it and I hope the listeners did too. Thank you so much.

Lionel:

I'm pretty sure. No, you're welcome. Thank you for taking the time and thank you everyone for listening. We will come back very soon with a new episode on a different subject. In the meantime, do not hesitate to share this episode. And thank you so much again for welcoming us. Goodbye.

Camilla:

Thank you. Goodbye.

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