The Tölt Tales

Episode 14 - Johan Häggberg

• The Tölt Tales • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In episode #S2E4 we talk with Johan Häggberg, rider, trainer and international FEIF judge. We managed to catch Johan inbetween A finals for the World Championship, while also being able to train for him. Johan tells us how he started riding, when his father bought 100 #Icelandichorses, explains why a correct seat is important, and that you need to have a trainer you can trust. 


Music by Cob.
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Lionel:

Hello everybody, and welcome to The Tölt Tales Podcast. Hello, Johan.

Johan:

Hi.

Lionel:

How are you?

Johan:

Fine.

Lionel:

Yes, sunny day today.

Johan:

Yeah, it is.

Lionel:

Yes. You're visiting south of Sweden today, right?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yes. And we just finished with the training where you torture me a bit.

Johan:

Yes.

Lionel:

I don't know if I should enjoy that you smile when you say yes, but this is how it is. Very interesting training. I need to put my legs backward, I guess. That's what I need to do.

Johan:

Yeah, I think it's a little bit interest, because I can't understand why people haven't done this to you before.

Lionel:

Yeah? Well, I never follow a horse, though. I mean, yeah, OK, I did follow from a horse multiple times. But not due to my seat, I don't think so. But it's very different. I think I will feel my legs tomorrow. Yeah, I will.

Johan:

I'm sure I will.

Lionel:

Tomorrow, you will most likely have to say, legs backward, heels down, lower hand.

Johan:

Yeah, but it was actually I didn't have to repeat myself so much as I often do.

Lionel:

OK, OK, OK.

Johan:

You're quite a good student, I think.

Lionel:

Thank you. I take that. It's recorded, so I can put that as a ringtone or... All right, we always start the podcast introducing the guests. So for the maybe two or three people in the back of the room that do not know you, what is Johan Häggberg doing in his life?

Johan:

Oh, I try to be a trainer and coach nowadays, mostly.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I've been doing everything I can do on horseback. I've been trying... I've been... I'm also judging. I'm a five judge. Yes. The only thing I haven't been doing, actually, is I haven't been a bleeding judge.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

That's the only thing I haven't done.

Lionel:

Okay, okay. Is it something that you still would like to try?

Johan:

No.

Lionel:

No. No.

Johan:

It's too late now. But it's like, you know, I was actually trying to be, but then the shoe is not the one, instead of being the one I was irritated with, and I wanted to be to see early 90s. But it's like, you know, then I haven't had the time.

Lionel:

No. Yes. Yeah.

Johan:

So I've been, I mean, so like I've been training a lot of horses. I showed a lot of horses for a bleeding show.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Very many.

Lionel:

Yeah. In world championship as well.

Johan:

Yes. Several times.

Lionel:

For Sweden, for other country?

Johan:

Yes. One for Denmark.

Lionel:

Oh, one for Denmark. Okay, okay. All right. Okay. And you're from Sweden, right?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yes. But it sounds like you're just doing your little things around, but you've been around since a bit of time, no?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Since the Icelandic horses landed on Sweden almost.

Johan:

Yeah, I think so. I've been off and on. But it's like, you know, my father bought a lot of horses in 1969.

Lionel:

Okay. 1969. Okay. Was Icelandic horses already?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yes. Okay. So imported them from Iceland?

Johan:

No, they were already imported. It was like this, that was three crazy men who started to buy or who bought 1500 Icelandic horses in Iceland.

Lionel:

Did you say 1500?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Oh, wow. Okay. In 1969?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

We brought them to Sweden, and my father bought 100 of them.

Lionel:

Again, you make it sound like it's not a lot, but it's 100 horses in one go, though.

Johan:

Yeah, it was quite a lot, actually.

Lionel:

Were you riding before, or your father...

Johan:

I was three years old.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

My father had been sort of like household riding a little bit.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

All right.

Lionel:

Okay. But your father having 100 horses, when you grew up, you grew up with horses then.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

And you started riding very young, I assume.

Johan:

Yeah, but I didn't ride so... I mean, it was the 70s. We didn't ride so well.

Lionel:

No? Okay. Do you feel we improve in our riding since the 70s?

Johan:

A lot.

Lionel:

A lot?

Johan:

Yeah, very, very much.

Lionel:

Due to what? Like, what type of...

Johan:

More knowledge.

Lionel:

Knowledge. Okay, okay.

Johan:

Also, I think that the riding has improved as well in the other world sports as well.

Lionel:

Okay. Yeah, like knowledge on also maybe like the horse's metabolism, et cetera, as well.

Johan:

Yeah, exactly. The general riding technique has improved a lot.

Lionel:

Right, okay.

Johan:

And the horse has improved a lot.

Lionel:

Okay. Do you consider yourself as someone technical? Is it what you want to achieve or feeling like, you know, when...

Johan:

I think I'm quite technical because I think that that is technique that produces feeling.

Lionel:

Okay. Oh, wow. Good. We're going to be friends. I have almost zero feeling.

Johan:

It is like this because I think it's... I mean, if you go for feeling all the time, it's not reproducible. So if you train enough technique, all the time it just happens.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

But if you go for art all the time, it never happens.

Lionel:

Yes. Okay. We're going to talk about a bit, riding a bit later. How is a normal week of Johan Häggberg looks like?

Johan:

Oh, I don't have normal weeks, but I'm at home and I do nothing. No, sort of like, but it's like, you know, otherwise, I travel.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I travel a lot.

Lionel:

Yes. Too much or no? This is something that you want to do?

Johan:

I like it.

Lionel:

Yes. Okay.

Johan:

Because otherwise, I can't work with the kind of pupils I do.

Lionel:

Okay. Right.

Johan:

Because I have chosen between having it at home.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Easy work.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Or trying to go more abroad, finding more better students.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

More challenges. Trying to be in the... You know, I don't compete anything more, but I compete for my students.

Lionel:

This is how you see yourself?

Johan:

A little bit like that.

Lionel:

Okay. And when you say traveling a lot, you mean literally traveling a lot. Like today, you are in the south of Sweden.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

And do you know where you're going to be next week?

Johan:

At home, mostly. But that's quite un-normal.

Lionel:

Okay. And you travel all in Scandinavia, Germany and...

Johan:

So like now it's been like mostly Germany, Norway, Denmark.

Lionel:

Norway, Denmark. Okay, okay.

Johan:

Sweden. But it's like now it's been also quite a lot. I was in Switzerland for quite a lot in Switzerland two years.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Being national trainer for Switzerland after 23.

Lionel:

Do you ride? Do you still ride?

Johan:

Only on clinics. I don't have any horses any longer.

Lionel:

No? Okay.

Johan:

Because it's too complicated. I travel too much.

Lionel:

No, you travel a lot. Yes, you will have to... I understand that. Just before we talk about training, I'm curious to know, like, do you have in your mind someone that was influential for your career?

Johan:

I think I would say Trudeau Balboa. Like many others, because I've been working with him since 2005.

Lionel:

Right, okay.

Johan:

Now, since I don't have a horse now, I don't have been riding very much for five or six years, but he was my most riding companion for 50 years.

Lionel:

All right, he was training you?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yeah, okay. When you were riding more often, you were still taking lessons?

Johan:

Absolutely.

Lionel:

Okay, all right, okay. Why? You are an accomplished rider.

Johan:

Everyone needs an outside hand, I think.

Lionel:

Yes, okay.

Johan:

I don't understand those who do it by themselves.

Lionel:

Yeah, it's, yeah.

Johan:

But they often, they do it to like sneak someone in them.

Lionel:

It's never, they are never alone.

Johan:

I don't think so.

Lionel:

No, no. You know that this was my favorite episode of Naftari, Naftari podcast, the one with Julio Barba. I think it's one of my favorite episode where you two, or you three, speaks for an hour. I really enjoy even listening to you talking together. It really feels you are, you have a connection in also between you.

Johan:

Yeah, very good friends.

Lionel:

Yes, yeah, I bet. It felt like it during the interview. So I thought that was really interesting. So let's talk about a bit of training. We just had a training just outside, but I cannot find a more broad question than this one. So please bear with me. Can you describe your approach to training? You know, like people describe, sometimes they talk about a system or a methodology.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Do you feel you have one anchor in your brain?

Johan:

Yeah, I have one. And it's very clear for me.

Lionel:

OK, how would you describe it?

Johan:

Oh, that's more difficult. Because it's like, you know, it's very basic. Should you sit correctly?

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

That's the fundamental thing. You should sit correctly on the horse.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

And you should also have a good technique. And from technique comes feeling, I think. OK. Technique needs a lot of repetition.

Lionel:

All right.

Johan:

So I'm not afraid to repeat a lot. And I also think it's very important that you have correct responses on the ride from the horse. OK. And it's like, you know, when you... I think it's very easy. When you close your hands, the horse should yield. When you open your fingers, the horse should stretch down forward, downwards.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

It should be easy to manage with your legs. And you should know when to get round for the leg, when to move, when to go forward from the leg. You should control the tempo of the horse with the front of your seat. With your stomach. That's the part of this moment when people don't use enough, I think. Because if you want to have the horse working with the core, you need to sit to the core yourself.

Lionel:

Right. OK. There is a kind of a mimetism between your own core and the horse's core.

Johan:

I think so.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

And if this time of the podcast talk, I don't think I'd let go.

Lionel:

OK. This is what you want to see.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

And weirdly enough, correct me if I'm wrong, but all the things you mentioned apply to all the gates.

Johan:

Yeah. Yeah, it does. Not exactly for pace, maybe.

Lionel:

Yeah. OK.

Johan:

It's a bit special, but it's also the horse that needs to be supple in pace as well.

Lionel:

Yes. Yeah.

Johan:

It needs to use the top line.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

It needs to be elastic.

Lionel:

So did you roll a lot of pace in your, when you were in your competition?

Johan:

I was holding the world record in paces for 13 years, I think.

Lionel:

OK. With what horse?

Johan:

It was the horse called Asgur from Håkarskåden.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

So I was, but it was taken away from me in 2017 by my school, my school, as some.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

On the mare, there was daughter Asgur.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

So the heritage was on, I think.

Lionel:

Is it Valsa after?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Oh, wow. It's quite a lineage already.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yes. Yes. Do you have a go-to exercise that you make your student go, maybe the first time you meet, or do you have something that you're like, OK, let's start with that?

Johan:

First of all, it's a temptation to walk.

Lionel:

OK. All right.

Johan:

Because it tells me a lot.

Lionel:

OK. What does it tell you? Usually what you're looking for, maybe it's...

Johan:

I look for how to use the seat.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

It also responds to dates.

Lionel:

All right.

Johan:

And if you can't do a good, speedy walk, you can't do it in another gate, I do.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

I think.

Lionel:

Am I right to say it's a very complex gate to train?

Johan:

And you can do a lot with the train. You can train a lot, actually.

Lionel:

Yes. OK.

Johan:

Especially through a correct collection and walk.

Lionel:

OK. All right.

Johan:

Many people like to ride the horse just to go forward on loose rails, to make it relax.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

And that's worth nothing, I think.

Lionel:

No.

Johan:

It's good if you go out in the forest.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

You have no control. What I'm thinking, I'm thinking specifically for, specifically for competition horse, of course.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Then you need to have control over the beat. You need to have control over the rhythm and the shape of the horse. And if you have that, you can also control the length of the horse.

Lionel:

Right.

Johan:

So you start by, if you can collect the horse properly and walk, and then extend it from there. You have a good control over the walk, I think.

Lionel:

So usually your go-to is like, OK, let's walk and do some tempo changes.

Johan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lionel:

And that tells you a lot on the rider and the horse, I guess.

Johan:

It does.

Lionel:

Yeah, on the combination, I guess. You mentioned Julio Borba before. Did it have a particular impact on the way you see training? Or you knew already, like, OK, no, this is what I am?

Johan:

I think it is, you know, words are just words. You can use the same words, but we can use the same words about riding, but it means totally different things for us. And the impact had on me was he changed my feeling of riding it completely.

Lionel:

So it changed your feeling?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

And the thing was like this, when I was extremely good, I was doing extremely good results. I was doing, I mean, the Swedish Championships in 2007, I was doing 9.5 for medium-tempo to tolt, if I forget, I got 9.5 for trot, I got 9.5 for fast tolt, 9.5 for canter, I got 9.5 for pace.

Lionel:

It's a bit boring, though. It's always 9.5.

Johan:

Yeah. But it's like, you know, it was very high on different horses. But I felt like I couldn't do it that, I couldn't ride that long, because I was so too, I couldn't let the horse go, you know. It would lighten the hands, of course, but I needed to put so much pressure on the horses.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

When I put the pressure to go, everything was gone.

Lionel:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Johan:

So I...

Lionel:

And you didn't like it? You didn't like that, or?

Johan:

No. And I started changing my riding, and I lost the results, of course.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I think you do. But I think I'm a much better rider for it.

Lionel:

Oh, wow. So you... Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So you were not happy about the way you were riding, basically?

Johan:

No.

Lionel:

Oh, wow. You said, I'm going to change the way I ride. So then you mean, like, that the horse is more free, or no?

Johan:

Softer, lighter.

Lionel:

Softer, lighter. Okay.

Johan:

More round.

Lionel:

Okay. And more independent in that sense, because you mentioned...

Johan:

A little bit like that.

Lionel:

Yes. Okay. And you didn't want it, that feeling?

Johan:

No. I want the horse to continue to do it without me. No, not without me, because you need to support the horse, but it should be much more easy.

Lionel:

Right. Okay. And you feel you're training towards that goal now, when you train your students, you want to see that?

Johan:

Yeah, I think so.

Lionel:

Yeah?

Johan:

I don't say things like you shouldn't get sweat when you ride, for instance, because that's a lie. Because you should get sweat. It's hard work. Yes.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

It's hard work to prepare the horse to be light.

Lionel:

It's through repetition also, right?

Johan:

Repetition and through, of course, teaching the horse how to do it, not teaching the horse, not what to do.

Lionel:

Okay. Yes.

Johan:

At least change the pressure.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

So to speak. You know, you shouldn't do nothing. Never do nothing, I think. But you should be able to find a light level of support.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

I think it's important.

Lionel:

You mentioned your competition result. What was your favorite competition, or you didn't have any favorite?

Johan:

No, I was doing extremely well in Pestas, of course.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

But I like to ride in T1 a lot.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I had like 15 to 20 horses in the A-Final in the Swedish Championships in T1.

Lionel:

It's quite all right, yes? Yeah.

Johan:

I had one more than three times, but nevertheless. And, no, it depends on the horse, but I can ride anything, I think.

Lionel:

Yes? Okay, okay. You more stallion, mare, or any horses? It doesn't matter?

Johan:

I prefer gelding, but I never had so many, because it's been like, no, it's a business thing.

Lionel:

It's a business. Yes, yeah, obviously, yeah.

Johan:

So I often end up with stallions.

Lionel:

Yes, yes.

Johan:

But I think that good gelding is never good, never bad enough.

Lionel:

No.

Johan:

Because it's like, no, it's never, it's always a very good thing to have a really good gelding, I think.

Lionel:

This is true, though, because it's a business, this is your living. Having a gelding, like even if your gelding compete to the highest level or win, you can sell the horse, but a stallion you can then have breeding and a mare you can breed, for sure.

Johan:

Yeah, exactly. And if you don't have an amount to buy the horse yourself.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Like when you always don't, then it's much easier to get a mare or a stallion for someone else.

Lionel:

To ride for someone else. I like to ride a horse of someone else. It's a weird one. If you had one advice to give to a rider, a new rider, what would be the advice?

Johan:

One advice. You can never train enough technique.

Lionel:

OK, yes. And get a trainer, I guess, then.

Johan:

Yeah, absolutely. Get a trainer you can trust.

Lionel:

Yeah, OK.

Johan:

That is good enough. And follow him or her for some years.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Because it's a really good thing, I think, because many people jump like from train to train, like some kind of smorgasbord.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

Which ends up, which may often they end up eating beef with chocolate sauce.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

I think. Because it's like, you know, they end up getting up because they can't sort it out.

Lionel:

Yes. I feel you get confused also, no? Like a different, I don't know, different voice in your head maybe or something?

Johan:

Yeah, it was also like one of the biggest life stories I ever told you about riding, that it doesn't matter whose way you choose because the goal is the same. And however often I have to go.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

Yes. It's the way that matters.

Lionel:

OK. Yeah.

Johan:

It truly is the way that matters.

Lionel:

Yes. It's like, yes, how do you do it? Though I don't know if you will agree, like I guess I'm advocating a lot for that, but like getting a trainer doesn't mean you do it for competing. That's not that. That's not at all.

Johan:

No, it's not so interesting, I think. Because competing is something, it's a choice you have. If you want to compete, you compete.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

That's fine.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

You don't have to compete. And people shouldn't compete, because they don't like it, I think. If you think it's fun to compete, you should compete. And you're not a better rider because you compete. No. Riding, competing is a different skill than being a good rider. I know many good riders that don't compete.

Lionel:

True. This is true.

Johan:

And excellent riders that don't compete, actually.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Because it's like, I mean, it's not the competition that measure how good your training is. It's measuring how good you are at competing.

Lionel:

True. This is true. Yes.

Johan:

So I think many people say that, oh, my horse is pace speed. Look at this. They cover the paper from... They don't cover the paper anymore because they don't give it on paper anymore. But they often used to look at it. When the people have been away, they came over to see these judges' covers.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

Oh, my horse is pace speed. No, they said, no, your horse is not pace speed. It was pace speed at that time. Yes. Because it's normally not pace speed.

Lionel:

This is true. Yeah, it's two different things. I think I like the way you say it. It's like being good at in a competition, it means it's validated that you're a good competitor. And you're most likely a good rider, hopefully, you know, but it doesn't mean there's a lot of people who are great riders that do not compete because they don't enjoy it.

Johan:

Or they are bad at it because they get bad results.

Lionel:

Or they are bad. Yes, this is true.

Johan:

So I don't think that this is training that is done if your training is good enough.

Lionel:

Yes. Yeah.

Johan:

It's not the competition that is the answer.

Lionel:

So me, I always say, you don't have to train for competing, but to have a sustainable horse. This is what you need to achieve. This is a goal that everybody should have. Yeah.

Johan:

The horse should be supple, should go clear tolt, it should be safe. And if you can't do that, you need to get the shit together.

Lionel:

What do you mean safe? What does it on compass safe?

Johan:

It means that it's comfortable to be ridden. It's safe, or you can stop whenever you want to go. If it comes to road, you can stop.

Lionel:

Yes. I said something during the training. I can stop my horse with a hoe. You didn't seem to enjoy it when I said that. What do you think about voice comment, for instance?

Johan:

It's good if you want to stop if it comes to the tractor or something. But it's like, you know, it's not riding for me.

Lionel:

No, no, no.

Johan:

It's communication, but it's not the kind of riding I'm after. I'm sort of more technical. I used to have an impact on the horse or the collection and so on.

Lionel:

Yes. Yeah, you use the legs, the hand, the pelvis. You say it's a communication. Is it what means training a horse to communicate with the horse?

Johan:

Of course it is. It is. What else do you do?

Lionel:

I don't know, like torture your horse until he gave up.

Johan:

I don't know. No, nobody. It's a level of communication, I think.

Lionel:

I didn't ask you a question. Now I just thought about it. You said that your father had a lot of horses. Did you fell in love with the horses from the get go, or it just grew on you?

Johan:

I rode because I had to.

Lionel:

Yeah, OK. This is my feeling. This is how I felt. Is it why you rode?

Johan:

A little bit in the start, I think. Like, I ride often. I always loved the horse world.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

I love the idea of riding. I love being part of the process. OK. And also, of course, I love horses. But I didn't do that from the start.

Lionel:

Yeah, it was not like love at first sight. No.

Johan:

No, it was also like off and on, because I was going to have another career, I thought.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

And I had to do some more break from that in 1990, and it's lost until now.

Lionel:

OK. So no more breaks since then.

Johan:

No.

Lionel:

No. Do you plan on having a break soon?

Johan:

I don't know.

Lionel:

So you mentioned a bit that you are a judge. How often do you judge during the year?

Johan:

Just like 78 competitions, maybe.

Lionel:

OK. OK. Do you choose which one? Like, do you have a favorite?

Johan:

No, I choose what I'm going to be asked to do. OK.

Lionel:

OK. And you do it in Sweden, but you are an international judge.

Johan:

I'm judging in Sweden, Denmark, Germany this year.

Lionel:

OK. Do you see different kind of judging between the three countries you mentioned, Denmark, Sweden and Germany? Do you see, you know, this is the same rules, it's the same rule book, but is there a different type of judging from your point of view?

Johan:

It's a question of attitude, I think, because...

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

I think it's more like, you know, it's more like now than it was.

Lionel:

OK.

Johan:

I think from country to country.

Lionel:

You felt that before it was more separate?

Johan:

Yeah, it was.

Lionel:

Yes. OK.

Johan:

The style of riding was more different from country to country as well.

Lionel:

Ah, yes? OK. Like Germany was riding slightly differently than Denmark or Sweden. OK. What was the difference? Like the speed, for instance?

Johan:

The shape of the horse.

Lionel:

Ah, the shape of the horse. OK.

Johan:

But it's like, you know, now it's much more the same.

Lionel:

Yes. OK. Is it because it's a more connected world now or...?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yeah?

Johan:

It was because it works better.

Lionel:

Yes. It works like this as well. Why did you become a judge?

Johan:

I liked it a lot. I was actually... You know, I was sitting on the World Championship in Udell in 1979. In 1979, I was in Holland.

Lionel:

Okay, Holland.

Johan:

Okay. And I was just... I was 13 years old. I was just trying to give points to what I saw. And one lady sat beside me. She was impressed with me. She wanted to do the competition in Skåne next spring.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

At Björkslagård, it was, I think. This was my first competition. I had a street with Peter Mersh and Farrarvare Larsson.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

In... We'll speak in 1980.

Lionel:

Okay, okay.

Johan:

From then on, it started. So I judged the European Championships when I was 19.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

Which no one will ever do again, I think.

Lionel:

No?

Johan:

I actually had it with my brother, who was 25, and he's, no one will ever judge when you're 25, I don't know. So it was quite a record, I think.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

Should never be repeated, hopefully.

Lionel:

Is it because too young?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yeah? Okay. You need to have some dirt on your skin to be a judge?

Johan:

Yeah, you need to be more experienced than we were.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

But we were very good for our time.

Lionel:

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Johan:

So, but it's been like this. So I started to interest myself very much for Yachting. And that's how I was part of the first Yacht group. In five, I was formed in 1990.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I did my least game, I say, at Nürnson.

Lionel:

Okay. What does it mean, the Yacht group? It's just where you discuss about the rules and how to improve and...

Johan:

Yeah, we also like the headhunt just about Yachting.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

In all Europe. It's been, so it was the first five Yacht group I was formed, I was in.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

I went to Holland, and so I was there for like four or five years there. Then I stopped for a while, and then I started again in 2002, I think. Oh, and then in 2000.

Lionel:

Okay. And now you judge every year, almost six or seven competitions a year, it's quite regular?

Johan:

Yeah, I do. I was stopping for Yachting for like 15 years.

Lionel:

Okay.

Johan:

Because the entire time I was much into competing and so on.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

But then I decided to start to take up my career again, and went on to take my five judges test in 2015.

Lionel:

To become then certified and international judge?

Johan:

Again.

Lionel:

Again? Yeah. Do you feel that your judging helps you as a rider or as a trainer?

Johan:

It's a circle.

Lionel:

It's a circle?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Like the one feed each other or...

Johan:

Yeah, exactly. And it's like... And of course, my main thing is being a rider, I think, which feeds the instruction and feeds the judging.

Lionel:

Yes.

Johan:

And so it's like... Yeah, it's like a circle, actually.

Lionel:

So one like improves the other?

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yeah, okay. It's a good circle then.

Johan:

Yeah.

Lionel:

Yeah, okay, okay. When someone trains for you, is there someone who asks you actually like, okay, but I want to compete? Do you feel then your judge brain start to like, okay, this is what you would have, this is how you need to improve, etc., etc.?

Johan:

Yeah, exactly. I know what I'm talking about.

Lionel:

Yes. Well, I believe you know what you're talking about, but being a judge helps you to...

Johan:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean that. Because I am a judge. As if I say this will be good, it is because it gets good.

Lionel:

Yes. It just helps. Yeah. You mentioned that we improved at the very beginning of the recording. The riding improved, but like your scores when you had 9.5 for slow tempo tot, do you think you will still be able to complete now with the horse that you had at that time?

Johan:

No.

Lionel:

No. Would you be still...

Johan:

The horse were good enough.

Lionel:

Ah, okay. Yes. Okay.

Johan:

But I would need to train them differently.

Lionel:

Yes. Okay.

Johan:

But like for instance, I would still be in the... Especially the pastest I did in 2003.

Lionel:

Yeah, it lasted for... Yeah, okay.

Johan:

In Hanning in 2003, where I put the world record, it would still be a world record. It would still be the same points, I think. That hasn't changed. No. I think I would still be world, exactly... I would still be in the game for...

Lionel:

For the medal.

Johan:

Yeah, for the medal at the World Championships.

Lionel:

It's cool.

Johan:

I think so. Because if you look at it, you'll be proud of it.

Lionel:

Yes. I mean, you're right. For pace, the time is the time. It's not like it was shorter or whatever.

Johan:

Yeah, of course, the times were good, but also the riding was good.

Lionel:

The riding also, yes. You mentioned breeding. Just briefly now, do you feel the breeding of the Icelandic horse is getting better? Do we breed better?

Johan:

Absolutely, no doubt about it.

Lionel:

Yes, we have better quality horse today than we had when you started, maybe, but even 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

Johan:

The average horse is much better.

Lionel:

Yes, we raised the bar of the average, basically.

Johan:

Yeah, and also the top horse is much better.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

We have built more uphill, for instance.

Lionel:

Okay, yeah, from the get-go.

Johan:

That's a really important thing, I think.

Lionel:

Yeah.

Johan:

They're much more mobile.

Lionel:

Right. Yeah, that's true.

Johan:

They're much more cooperative.

Lionel:

Okay. And the temperament also, you feel changed?

Johan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Lionel:

Yes. Compared to the horses you had when you were younger.

Johan:

Absolutely. Yeah, basically. Much more movement to the horses.

Lionel:

Right. Okay, okay. This year, we saw a Swedish horse being a silver medalist. Yeah. Do you think the Swedish breeding is good also? Is it a good reflection of the Swedish breeding?

Johan:

It's been better now.

Lionel:

It's better now?

Johan:

Yes, it was very good for some years.

Lionel:

Okay. And now we're catching up a bit more?

Johan:

Yeah, I think so.

Lionel:

Danish breeding is quite strong still, right?

Johan:

Yeah, it's very good.

Lionel:

Thank you so much, Johan, for talking to us today. And thank you, everyone, for listening. We will come back very soon with a new episode. In the meantime, do not hesitate to share this episode. Before leaving you, we would like to mention that you can follow us on Instagram, but Johan as well. We're going to put the Instagram account of Johan. Look for where he's coming next to you and train for him. If you want to be tortured with your legs or... Improve your seat, I should have said. You'll find us on Instagram, Facebook, The Tölt Tales for more news and stories. Goodbye.

Johan:

Goodbye.

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